My initial reaction was correct
I didn't expect to confirm my analysis of the Xanga-ite I mentioned earlier, but he's given me ample material. I skipped chapel today, so I missed what happened. In the midst of "I Stand in Awe" a guy stood up and shouted "Stand and worship your God!" There has been much debate on the forums about this, and the post qualities range from phenomenal to outrageously idiodic. If the latter category were a nametag, I would plant it firmly on Tim Potts' shirt. Let me present some excerpts of his comments, and their surrounding context (which is more than he does with the verses he produces as "proof" of his ideas):
Tim:
Another student posts:
More from Tim:
On a more positive note, here are some of the more pleasant and enjoyable posts by other students that display an attitude of teachability and humility:
UPDATE: The other (and more critical) half of my skitzofrenic self warns me of something--I'm attacking Tim for bumbling verses and not advancing a real argument. Does this post make me guilty of the same crime? No. I am simply pointing out some of what Tim and others have said, with a few comments in between that conveys my attitude towards it. This is not a rant or a rave. This is not an argument for why I believe Tim is wrong. Rather it's simply observations of things Tim said which caught my eye.
Tim:
most of our chapels seem charismatic.... Which is terrible for someone like me who will not add or subtract to what God has commanded us in worshiping Him in scripture.Elsewhere in the discussion, a student writes to Tim:
I agree with you that worship should never go against the Bible.Tim responds:
I don't see where one would get from my comment that my views of worship come from my own imagination. I simply stated that worship should be led by the Holy Spirit. This may mean at times that we are led by him to create an aganeda for worship. The HS is fully capable of doing this. The Spirit may also ask us to wait upon the Lord. I think this can involve an aspect of corporate worship that does not have a pre-set agenda.
I'm trying to figure out what you are saying. Are you saying the "charismatic" worship is guilty of creating worship out of ones own imagination and therefore is against the will of God. If this is so then I have to disagree with this as a set principle. I think there are those who are guilty of worshipping out of their own ideas and imaginations but this could happen just as easy at a liturgical service that is planned out. We are all guilty of and susceptible to the temptation of yielding to our own preferences in worship and all areas of life, rather than yielding to the Spirit of God.
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit can lead us to invent worship that is inspired and thus become authority by God? Then would you say that we have the inspiration and influence from the Spirit to write books equal in authority to scripture?I'm thinking: WHAT?!?! Where did that come from, Tim? Did you even read the post you're responding to?
Another student posts:
I myself prefer liturgy, but I do not think that JBU's bands are necessarliy wrong.Tim's response, as usual, is full of intellectual rigor and merit:
Do you have scripture to back up this?A female student posts:
"Even though I don't agree with you on [worship], I'd at least like to understand where you're coming from and how you support it scripturally."Tim's response:
Do you have scriptural support against it?[COUGH, SPUTTER, THROAT HACK, AHEM]
More from Tim:
So we worship God through how he commands us to. He never commanded choirs, solo performances, uninspired hymns and praise songs, instruments, etc.Folks, this is so bogus it's laughable. I have tried to keep an open mind about Tim--see here--but I must admit he's provided me with too much tripe to think well of him.
Using instruments in public worship is no different to God than burning incense or sacrificing a goat on an altar it all says the same thing: Christ's sacrifice was not good enough, we must continue in the ways of the Temple but did God not destroy the Temple with the Roman army in A.D. 70?? which is described in revelation 18 and guess what is mentioned in rev. 18 in regards to the destruction of jerusalem??
"Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence,
-->and will be found no more;
and the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters,
will be heard in you no more,<--- and a craftsman of any craft will be found in you no more, and the sound of the mill will be heard in you no more,"
On a more positive note, here are some of the more pleasant and enjoyable posts by other students that display an attitude of teachability and humility:
If I am wrong, then I pray the Lord grant the grace for me to be corrected.Amen to that.
...
“Oh, but I have given you plenty of scripture,” [Tim] say[s]. I laugh. You have given me a number of verses yes. These verses you ripped, bleeding and writhing, from the context your Bible.
UPDATE: The other (and more critical) half of my skitzofrenic self warns me of something--I'm attacking Tim for bumbling verses and not advancing a real argument. Does this post make me guilty of the same crime? No. I am simply pointing out some of what Tim and others have said, with a few comments in between that conveys my attitude towards it. This is not a rant or a rave. This is not an argument for why I believe Tim is wrong. Rather it's simply observations of things Tim said which caught my eye.
5 Comments:
Hmm... Great post, as always Seth.
I agree with you about this Xanga-ite. His posts lack proof; he prosecutes (so to speak) such things as contemporary praise and worship, and pretends that the burden of proof rests on the defense. Silly metaphor? Maybe, but I think it pertains to debate.
Someone should introduce this guy to Bunnie Diehl... They seem to agree on lots of things. Then again, could the blogosphere handle that?
Just because something isn't in the Bible does not make it evil or wrong. Good Grief, if a person applied Tim's kind of thinking to his entire life, he would be a stagnant sack of pooh. We'd all be stuck in the 1st Century! Now I'm no charismatic, and I'll be the first to say that my charismatic friends do use "worship" as a dumping grounds for their sin (in much the same way as a priestly offering...). But to suggest that using the term "Spirit-led worship" is parallel to usurping Scripture is silly.
Wow... that is sad. Not only for Tim, but also for non-believers who are watching our every move to make sure that we "live what we preach." How can anyone come to the Lord when they see us as Christians nit-picking the way each other worships to pieces? If not shutting them off to Christ completely, what impression does this give others of Christianity?
The good thing is that we are all Christians if we have accepted Jesus Christ, and though we may disagree on some things, we are brothers in Christ.
It says in the Bible something to the effect (can't find the reference, sorry) that God inhabits the praises of his children. If someone has a different "style" of praising God, and they can't accept anything else, then they have some problems, UNLESS that style of worship goes against some of their moral values, and in that case they should lovingly confront their brother in Christ, or debate with scripture, but with a loving spirit. I realize that I'm rambling about a lot of things that are completely irrlevent to your original post, but it has gotten me thinking (like most of your posts do), and I have taken the liberty to write down my thoughts.
God Bless, man.
Eric
Thanks for the comments, everyone! They're appreciated.
I am not charismatic (been burned by too many Christians who claim to be to like it much) but I know the difference between arguing based on Scripture and being just plan legalistic. There is really no way anyone can argue [based on God's word] that one type of singing or music used to praise God is somehow worse than another. (If that were the case than I feel bad for Asian and African countries that don't sing hymns, praise, and spiritual songs that sound anything like ours.)
It is terribly sad that in this day and age people can not distinguish between God given conviction FOR THEM and God given rules and laws FOR EVERYONE. There is a huge difference.
So sad. ;_;
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